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please help me welcome Dale Graff

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I think I'll borrow a term from Jerome

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Clarke and say that I'm going to be

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examining various unusual experiences

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some of them are anomalous and some of

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them are paranormal anyway where I'm

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going to be looking at is examining

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different a variety of experiences to

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see if there's any common features

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between them I'm going to be looking to

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see if there's a side connection that is

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ESPE telepathy remove humoring that

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might exist amongst the different

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experiences I'm going to be taking a

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look at the lucid dream on the body

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spectrum and the implications that might

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come from this my first connection with

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anomalous phenomenon occurred when I was

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assigned to the farm technology division

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in 1964 and through a fortuitous

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coincidence I was sitting right next to

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the project Bluebook office and I gave

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me an opportunity to sample some of the

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cases that they had in a file I only

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could look through several hundred of

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the many thousands they had there so I

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can't really come up with a definitive

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conclusion on unlike some of the other

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committees that looked at the same data

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but I will say this and I think of all

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the data that are recorded they were

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recorded in Project Blue Book and I'll

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go along with the assessment made by

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major quintanilla who was the chief at

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the time that at least 10% if not more

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or totally unexplained we just can't

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even rationalize what may have cost them

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at while I was at FTD I had the

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opportunity to sit next to the UFO

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hotline the phone which was in an office

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next to me and occasionally I would be

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brought in to help evaluate the calls

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that were called in from the general

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public and through the years that I was

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sitting there and occasioning looking at

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some of these reports I have to say I

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did not see any that were credible they

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were usually hoaxes or

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misinterpretations of actual data

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nevertheless I think they're at least

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10% of the cases in that file that are

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truly unexplainable what was

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disappointing to me was that the data

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was rather limited there were a lot of

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questions I had but couldn't really

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into it and for example never incidents

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of out-of-body experiences describe

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there were unusual physiological

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affection you've heard about some of

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them here some of the people that had

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these sightings reported spontaneous

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healings afterwards some of them has

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increased sensitivities like when

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individuals report a near-death

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experience and of course there's ample

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examples of SCI phenomenon in there but

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I also noticed in the cases I looked at

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and also with people that I met in the

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community and began exploring this with

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people locally in a Dayton Ohio area

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that some of the experiences had trauma

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in their lives either past even present

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or some future trauma and I have

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examples later my interest sort of died

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off about 1968 when I was transferred to

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Hickam Air Force Base and I lost

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interest in the field until I had a near

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drowning experience in Hawaiian surf and

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wonder when I came back from that

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experience I found that the boundaries

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that I had between consciousness and

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awake had totally dissolved I was able

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to go directly from the awake state into

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the dream state without ever going to

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sleep so suddenly I become aware of

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being in a dream and years later I

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learned that does a yoga technique

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called dream yoga where they spent years

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trying to achieve that particular

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ability so this gave me an opportunity

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to study lucid dreams any other body

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experience in great detail located

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people in the community that could do

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the same and as we worked with this

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material I found it a lot of archetypal

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material in there for those familiar

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with CG young and the collective

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unconscious you'll know what I mean but

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just basically symbols that don't have a

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personal connection that go back in the

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time historic into ancient myths

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mythology whatever and I also

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experienced a lot of archetypal and

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symbolic dreams but they had to do with

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the symbols ground symbols disks and

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whatever which I associated with Amalek

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the mandala a symbol of connectedness to

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my subconscious mind and integration was

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going on between my consciousness and my

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sub consciousness as I worked with

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people I found that we hacked

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mutual dreams whether we wanted to or

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not and we experienced a lot of

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telepathy and precognition this is

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during a time frame in the early 1970s

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when I started to take a deep look at

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this one of the interesting things that

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I found was that those of us that we're

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really looking at dreams but sometimes

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wake up and there was the dream image

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still in the room had it not been for

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the fact that we remembered a dream we

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would have said that was an apparition

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or a ghost and this dream image that

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remained as we woke up momentarily could

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be frightening if we didn't know we had

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a dream could be a in person and animal

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or a thing there are also times when we

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had false awakenings you know you wake

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up into a dream you think you're awake

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but you're not I'm going to show how to

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get rid of that symbol we also

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experienced sleep analysis as sleep

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paralysis where there are times you wake

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up and you're totally paralyzed you

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can't move it's a very unsettling

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experience and during this time we also

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found that as we worked with dreams are

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waking imagery that was very clear and

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as we experimented with different

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projects we found that was very easy to

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go from a dream state to a conscious

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state particularly when we were trying

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to describe remote scenes or pictures

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that were concealed another thing that I

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found was that the more intense it

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became the more intense intensity or

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intentionality that you put into the

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success of the project the experiment

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the more vivid imagery and here's where

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I made some mistakes early on some of my

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target material was far too emotional

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and the individual on the other end the

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receiving end of the dream or the waking

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state experience would end up with

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severe physical symptoms in some cases a

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picture of somebody being stabbed by

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sword would convert directly to a black

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and blue mark on the arm of the

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individual because we had actually got

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maybe he spent too much energy and

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trying to connect with that distant

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target I know I had an experience when

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time in a double blind where the picture

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was a Holocaust somebody being injected

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with poison and I would I woke up from

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the horrible dream

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actually thinking I was dying I went to

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the bathroom sick and it took me a ten

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minutes to get over that sickness so

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it's possible to really get absorbed

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into

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the target material and take on the

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physical symptoms even to the point we

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actually see the marks now I've also

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been aware of the staring experiments

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these are mild compared to some of the

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more intense physiological ones that

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I've experienced with my colleagues over

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the years I was a participant in the SR

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I staring experiment I was in Russia in

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1993 and observed the Russian experiment

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in a similar project of a staring which

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was actually more intense than when we

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did in this country now I've explored

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the experiences I have three here that

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are really the intense ones over the

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10-year period that I really looked at

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this one was the alien threat a woman

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contacted me and said that there was an

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alien of grey coming into her bedroom

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was shape shifted and looked like an

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evil demon well the more I talked to her

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the more I realized this sounded more

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like an archetype or something some kind

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of threat together we worked on a mutual

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dreaming and we were able to identify

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that this alien was actually the face

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the shape shifted into the face of

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somebody that threatened her many years

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ago and we wondered why the dream

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occurred now when it turned out that he

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had called he called her a couple of

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days later since he was then prepared to

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deal with the approaching threat there

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were two other traumas that I worked

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with it was time the people in the

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community that had to do with polarized

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phenomenon and in one case we identified

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the source of the outbreak with a

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traumatic incident that happened in a

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woman's childhood when her mother tried

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to suffocate her and whenever her

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mother's birthday came around but she

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had this poltergeist outbreak where

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objects flew around the room in her

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house and another case it was a future

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trauma where the woman experienced

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poltergeist rate of a trauma that she

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would learn about the next day now in

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all the work I've done over the years

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I've been looking at different

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experiences that meditators people are

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going into fasting people had

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experienced the Kundalini phenomenon

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which sometimes occurs through

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meditation I've talked to epileptics

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people have seizures I've talked to the

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synesthesia people are suffering from

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cross senses a whole host of people that

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have different kinds

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experiences and these are some of the

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common experiences they be the report as

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a rotating spinning feeling their

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tunnels their vortexes the tubes that

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get drawn into the strong electric and

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magnetic sensations their color shifts

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going from a vivid greater a blue that

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they perceive visually the geometric

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forms triangles squares shapes that

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condense and form different shapes and

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when we do experiments these shapes

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generally correlate with the intended

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target and of course there are sounds

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humming buzzing or their silences now

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you might look at that and say well that

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sounds like some of the UFO experiences

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and that's correct too so I'm pointing

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out that these experiences can occur in

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other kinds of saturations now sometimes

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in order to look at boundaries of

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perception you're working with a

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colleague that lives in Orlando Florida

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I like to use very simple projects like

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this I test chart so the page from this

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optical book is on your left is target

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this is her response on the right which

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actually correlates very well with the

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vertical lines except his shifts and

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that was the whole intention of the eye

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test do shift from one spot to the other

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but then like in most remote viewing

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situations she turns this into an animal

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or a farce of the the tendency to

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analyze is ever-present here was the

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same project only in a dream state and

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in this case the lines are very close to

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correlating with the intended target but

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again is a shift into interpreting and

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Wichern which in this case there's no

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interpretation they're just pure lines I

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like to work with the future and my

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specialty you might say is trying to

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perceive the pictures that appear on

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newspapers is three days in the future

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three or five days in the future and

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these are two pictures that appeared on

278
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a local newspaper three days after the

279
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dream and I always sketch the ending of

280
00:10:52,250 --> 00:10:50,760
the dream which is the most reliable and

281
00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:52,260
the most accurate there were two

282
00:10:57,650 --> 00:10:54,690
pictures on that page the one on top

283
00:10:59,480 --> 00:10:57,660
then the one on the bottom the the event

284
00:11:01,940 --> 00:10:59,490
had not occurred at a time of the dream

285
00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:01,950
the event occurred three days later two

286
00:11:06,590 --> 00:11:03,570
days later and was published three days

287
00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:06,600
later on the top you'll notice that this

288
00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:07,440
doesn't really

289
00:11:12,290 --> 00:11:09,870
look like the picture but it was a sense

290
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:12,300
of falling it was a sense of something

291
00:11:17,450 --> 00:11:14,850
like a parachute some kind of moisture

292
00:11:20,450 --> 00:11:17,460
coming down and it captured the essence

293
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:20,460
the dynamics of the picture including

294
00:11:25,130 --> 00:11:22,650
some very specific details of the shade

295
00:11:28,730 --> 00:11:25,140
of the shadow that's right below the dog

296
00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:28,740
that light dark pattern in this case the

297
00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:31,590
accuracy was off but the timing seemed

298
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:33,870
to be on in terms of the momentum on the

299
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:37,050
bottom picture the timing is off but the

300
00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:38,370
accuracy of the picture is better

301
00:11:42,170 --> 00:11:40,260
because I don't have to presume that the

302
00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:42,180
dog actually did catch that in the next

303
00:11:47,390 --> 00:11:44,310
frame remember these pictures did not

304
00:11:49,550 --> 00:11:47,400
exist at the time of the dream the event

305
00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:49,560
occurred three days later so there's a

306
00:11:54,590 --> 00:11:51,570
slight hint of an uncertainty principle

307
00:11:57,470 --> 00:11:54,600
here accurate in time trade-off in

308
00:11:59,480 --> 00:11:57,480
position accurate in position trade-off

309
00:12:01,270 --> 00:11:59,490
in time I've seen this over the years

310
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:01,280
and some of the projects I worked on I

311
00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:03,450
like this one it's a painting of a

312
00:12:10,220 --> 00:12:06,870
Peruvian shaman after one of his

313
00:12:12,050 --> 00:12:10,230
Chamonix Ernie's drinking the brew are

314
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:12,060
Houska I think I pronounced that right

315
00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:14,850
with the drug DMT and I don't quite know

316
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:16,620
how to pronounce that dimethyl tribe

317
00:12:22,250 --> 00:12:19,440
feta meaning now in this what's

318
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:22,260
interesting here is the center top is a

319
00:12:26,450 --> 00:12:24,330
spacecraft that's what he describes as a

320
00:12:28,340 --> 00:12:26,460
spacecraft and those are aliens or

321
00:12:30,380 --> 00:12:28,350
people that inhabit that spacecraft that

322
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:30,390
come out to meet him there's a lot of

323
00:12:34,940 --> 00:12:31,650
cultural stuff there's a lot of

324
00:12:37,790 --> 00:12:34,950
archetypal stuff in here as well but

325
00:12:40,370 --> 00:12:37,800
this peruvian shamans tend to have a

326
00:12:42,590 --> 00:12:40,380
tendency to see UFOs so if you want to

327
00:12:46,250 --> 00:12:42,600
see a UFO I suppose you should go to the

328
00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:46,260
Amazon so what have I come to after all

329
00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:49,860
these years I think that some UFOs are

330
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:52,620
internal imagery and they're generated

331
00:12:57,470 --> 00:12:54,930
totally by the individual this could be

332
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,480
some kind of archetypal archetypal thing

333
00:13:00,890 --> 00:12:59,040
it could be something from the

334
00:13:02,510 --> 00:13:00,900
collective unconscious it could be some

335
00:13:04,220 --> 00:13:02,520
kind of buried hidden need that the

336
00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:04,230
individual has to have the experience

337
00:13:08,570 --> 00:13:06,750
there also some from terrestrial sources

338
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:08,580
you might be in the position of the

339
00:13:14,660 --> 00:13:11,490
position or close to a high par magnetic

340
00:13:16,910 --> 00:13:14,670
field electromagnetic radar generation

341
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:16,920
it might generate some of these but even

342
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:19,050
more significant some of these can be

343
00:13:24,019 --> 00:13:21,360
transferred from one person to another

344
00:13:26,420 --> 00:13:24,029
my intention I know a lot of cases where

345
00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:26,430
somebody sees UFOs when somebody who has

346
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:28,260
good psychic abilities say look up in

347
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:30,510
the sky there's a UFO and they see them

348
00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:32,850
but they don't all see the same thing so

349
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:34,649
there's a transfer and I think in the

350
00:13:38,569 --> 00:13:36,810
Hindu tradition to call it Shakti the

351
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:38,579
transfer of energy or the transfer of

352
00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:41,279
imagery in the abductions okay I tend to

353
00:13:45,050 --> 00:13:43,260
think that a lot of them if not most of

354
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:45,060
them are lucid dreams on the body

355
00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:47,010
experiences or the one that's really

356
00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:49,529
more riveting others a transpersonal one

357
00:13:53,090 --> 00:13:51,180
I believe that many of them a trauma

358
00:13:55,790 --> 00:13:53,100
links and some that might be linked to

359
00:13:57,769 --> 00:13:55,800
the drug DMT which is some researchers

360
00:14:00,590 --> 00:13:57,779
suspect is generated by the pineal loop

361
00:14:02,210 --> 00:14:00,600
pine needle plan and of course some are

362
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:02,220
unexplainable and you've heard a lot

363
00:14:06,530 --> 00:14:05,279
about that so far implications I think

364
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:06,540
that there really is a collective

365
00:14:11,569 --> 00:14:08,490
imaginal domain that does have an

366
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:11,579
existence it's real in a psychological

367
00:14:16,430 --> 00:14:14,010
sense but not in a literal sense and

368
00:14:18,590 --> 00:14:16,440
somehow has a reality all to itself I

369
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:18,600
also suspect now

370
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:21,570
then space-time is represented somewhere

371
00:14:25,939 --> 00:14:23,850
there's a representation of space-time

372
00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:25,949
it kind of Park somewhere let's like

373
00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:29,100
holla a holographic pattern which can

374
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:31,529
record and also code information in

375
00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:34,050
space-time and now through our conscious

376
00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:36,000
subconscious mind we can interact with

377
00:14:39,860 --> 00:14:38,100
it providing the needs and the

378
00:14:42,079 --> 00:14:39,870
intentions are focused properly

379
00:14:44,329 --> 00:14:42,089
sometimes it's a subconscious thing

380
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:44,339
sometimes it's an intentional thing a

381
00:14:50,889 --> 00:14:46,290
planned thing like in remote viewing for

382
00:14:54,019 --> 00:14:50,899
example and I also think at this stage

383
00:14:56,540 --> 00:14:54,029
that of the two biggest problems of psy

384
00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:56,550
in terms of trying to reconcile it from

385
00:15:01,910 --> 00:14:57,930
a scientific point of view or

386
00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:01,920
precognition and macro pk if you think

387
00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:04,680
about space-time being represented in

388
00:15:09,319 --> 00:15:07,190
some represents representational space

389
00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:09,329
then I'm beginning to think that

390
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:11,940
precognition is a projection feature of

391
00:15:16,910 --> 00:15:14,850
that space-time so that what we perceive

392
00:15:19,130 --> 00:15:16,920
as the future is not really in the

393
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:19,140
future but it's now and projected from

394
00:15:23,569 --> 00:15:20,730
all known information that's in this

395
00:15:25,449 --> 00:15:23,579
representational space macro PK then

396
00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:25,459
follows because now with the

397
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:27,990
representational space then as a matter

398
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:29,970
of somehow interacting with the forms

399
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:32,130
the energy forms or whatever that are in

400
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:34,050
the representational space and changing

401
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:34,650
them around

402
00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:38,130
and then quitting or then leaving the

403
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:41,160
experience or changing the shapes and of

404
00:15:43,970 --> 00:15:42,720
course I think it's also important to

405
00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:43,980
keep in mind that insights from

406
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,740
individual experiences are important but

407
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:48,480
keeping in mind that each one has a

408
00:15:52,070 --> 00:15:49,770
different sensing and a different

409
00:16:14,410 --> 00:15:52,080
interpretation which totally changes

410
00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:17,900
this my question or observation

411
00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:21,500
addresses but a small part of what you

412
00:16:28,850 --> 00:16:26,100
illustrated the the point that connected

413
00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:28,860
for me both in terms of your near-death

414
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:33,150
experience and the the wounding that

415
00:16:44,930 --> 00:16:38,210
sometimes appears following a traumatic

416
00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:44,940
night inside your town suggested Ian

417
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:52,070
Stephens work with past life carry over

418
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:54,510
for instance if there was a traumatic

419
00:16:59,900 --> 00:16:57,600
death and some injury had occurred to a

420
00:17:03,170 --> 00:16:59,910
part of the body in the process that the

421
00:17:06,430 --> 00:17:03,180
that birthmarks would show up on people

422
00:17:09,470 --> 00:17:06,440
and in sessions where they were

423
00:17:10,970 --> 00:17:09,480
reexamining this material and if the if

424
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:10,980
the if there is such a thing as

425
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:13,250
reincarnation then the dream state

426
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:15,570
between lives might not be that

427
00:17:23,810 --> 00:17:20,310
different from that between nighttime

428
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:23,820
and daytime for allowing for that kind

429
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:26,490
of a transmission do you have any

430
00:17:29,450 --> 00:17:27,360
comment on that

431
00:17:31,670 --> 00:17:29,460
I think you're right on that and

432
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:31,680
whatever I use the term imaginal or

433
00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:33,360
collective unconscious but you can add

434
00:17:38,210 --> 00:17:34,950
other terms to that some kind of

435
00:17:40,610 --> 00:17:38,220
transitional stage or phase some some

436
00:17:42,290 --> 00:17:40,620
non reality domain we get is very real

437
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:42,300
now I can relate to that and I think

438
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:43,770
there's something to it there's

439
00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:48,090
something to your concept there yes

440
00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:50,070
they've got a question that picture that

441
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:54,030
you had from Peru yeah I believe the

442
00:18:00,080 --> 00:17:57,090
substances are using is ayahuasca every

443
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:00,090
dealt with the quote on debt also found

444
00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:03,210
that the when you talk to them we talk

445
00:18:07,220 --> 00:18:05,430
about separate states of consciousness

446
00:18:09,290 --> 00:18:07,230
and you've talked about waking asleep

447
00:18:12,620 --> 00:18:09,300
when you talk with the core of dentals

448
00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:12,630
it's like these states are contiguous I

449
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:15,030
mean they just move smoothly between

450
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,310
them is what if you could comment on you

451
00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:19,200
know what way is that we have a distinct

452
00:18:24,890 --> 00:18:21,540
separation they see no separation at all

453
00:18:26,990 --> 00:18:24,900
seem to move fluidly yes the practice

454
00:18:28,850 --> 00:18:27,000
shaman apparently does that you know I

455
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:28,860
sometimes wonder if he would need to

456
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:32,850
indulge in any kind of brew but the

457
00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:35,520
beginners the the apprentices appears to

458
00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:38,430
be able to need that thing so what the

459
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:40,830
shamans in Peru and other places do is

460
00:18:46,340 --> 00:18:43,370
very similar to the dream young approach

461
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:46,350
from Tibet and and that part of the

462
00:18:50,690 --> 00:18:48,810
country are there different terms but

463
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:50,700
the ultimate goal is to have this

464
00:18:55,610 --> 00:18:53,130
continuous awareness whether you're

465
00:18:58,630 --> 00:18:55,620
so-called asleep or not you know the

466
00:19:03,780 --> 00:18:58,640
continuous awareness one last question

467
00:19:13,690 --> 00:19:03,790
if you could back that diagram that guy

468
00:19:19,220 --> 00:19:17,660
can get back there quickly enough okay

469
00:19:21,650 --> 00:19:19,230
you want to go to the shaman argh yeah I

470
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:21,660
guess yeah that's right yes well you see

471
00:19:27,230 --> 00:19:24,720
those angels with the many faces that is

472
00:19:29,870 --> 00:19:27,240
reminiscent of Ezekiel's vision of the

473
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:29,880
Merkava that's exactly eight with all

474
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:33,360
the four three faces that he describes

475
00:19:38,030 --> 00:19:36,360
in the Bible Wow again oh yes that may

476
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:38,040
well be but I think it's it's also

477
00:19:41,660 --> 00:19:39,510
reflects on the collective unconscious

478
00:19:44,780 --> 00:19:41,670
that no matter what culture you're in

479
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:44,790
you are going to access shapes forms

480
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:47,850
configurations with certain people look

481
00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:51,780
like yeah yeah I don't yeah don't doubt

482
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,790
that there's a very similar what is the

483
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:55,200
collective unconscious but a storehouse

484
00:20:00,740 --> 00:19:58,080
of that kind of imagery whether it has a

485
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:00,750
religious tone and I think some

486
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:02,880
UFO experiences are really religious

487
00:20:07,250 --> 00:20:04,770
experiences disguised in modern

488
00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:07,260
technology and vice versa so it's really